John Pollard
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New Brunswick resident John Pollard has struggled to find employment and housing due to systemic discrimination against formerly incarcerated people.
HISTORICAL CONTEXT
Due to restrictive legislation implemented during the late twentieth century, securing housing is an obstacle for formerly incarcerated persons. The Quality Housing and Work Responsibility Act, enacted in 1998, allowed public housing agencies (including both public housing and Section 8) to bar or evict persons convicted of felonies. Job applications that ask applicants to “check the box” indicating whether or not they’ve been convicted of a crime have also presented enormous obstacles to employment for formerly-incarcerated individuals. [1]
Historians have argued that the late twentieth century saw a shift from social policies aimed to help marginalized populations navigate social and economic difficulty to a set of more punitive, “tough” policies that caused incarceration rates to balloon and undermined the rights of those marginalized populations. [2]
But many have fought to dismantle such policies. In response to such grassroots efforts, the State of New Jersey passed the Opportunity to Compete Act in 2015, which “banned the box” from job applications. [3] This legislation was expanded in 2017. [4] Advocates have also worked to eliminate barriers formerly incarcerated persons face by providing support for formerly incarcerated persons during reentry.
[1] See Michelle Alexander, The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness (New York: The New Press, 2012, Revised). On housing see Summary of the Quality Housing and Work Responsibility Act of 1998 (Title V of P.L. 105-276).
[2] Julilly Kohler-Hausmann, Getting Tough: Welfare and Imprisonment in 1970s America (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2017).
[3] David Foster, “Gov. Chris Christie Signs Bail Reform Legislation at Trenton City Hall, Pledges Support to Mayor Jackson,” The Trentonian, August 11, 2014; Matt Arco, “Governor signs bail alternative for the poor - Democrats supportive of Christie's decision,” The Star-Ledger, August 12, 2014.
[4] S. P. Sullivan “Christie Signs Bills to Help Former Convicts Clear Records, Get Jobs,” The Star-Ledger, December 20, 2017.
ANNOTATIONS
Learn More [1]: S2055 1R.
Learn More [2]: “NJ Close to Giving Prisoners Access to State Financial Aid for College Courses.” NJ Spotlight News, September 19, 2019.
Learn More [3]: Columnist, Star-Ledger Guest. “By Educating Inmates, Prisons Can Become a Safer Place for Everyone: Opinion.” nj, July 23, 2018.
Learn More [1]: Housing and Reentry - Reentry Net.
Learn More [2]: “No Second Chance.” Human Rights Watch, July 1, 2019.
TRANSCRIPT
This is Debbie Galant in New Brunswick about to interview John Pollard in Coming Home. Okay so now we’re recording. So start with, um, telling me your name and spelling it for me.
My name is John Pollard. “J. O. H. N. P. O. L. L. A. R. D.”
Okay, and tell me where and when you were born.
I was born in New Brunswick, New Jersey.
When?
Uh, 1959.
Okay. And tell me a little bit about your childhood. What was your childhood like?
Crazy [laughs]. I was raised up with a mother and father. Which they both worked hard but my dad was, like, a drinker. And um, for some reason or whatever he uh, departed. He went to Detroit and she stayed here and worked hard all her life to raise 7 kids.
Where did you fall in the pack?
Uh, the second oldest. Uh, everybody went to school but me. I--
How come?
Because I was the bad child of the family. What they call the black sheep.
From what time?
From the 1960s, 70s.
I mean you were a, you were a black sheep from the time you were like three years old, five years old? When did you decide…?
Okay, from the time I was uh, thirteen, fourteen years old.
Okay. And did you deserve to be the black sheep? Was it something you were doing or?
No, it was uh, because I felt like there was no love at home so I had to find it on the streets. And that's where I ended up at. On the streets.
Tell me about that.
Uh, I started running around with guys that was older than me. Showing me the way to make money. And I learned running back and forth from New York from Harlem to New Brunswick, transporting drugs back here. Selling drugs. You name it, everything I did. And uh, I ended up going to jail from doing all the bad things I was doing. So I ended up doing 28 years. I came home in 2008. And started my life all over again. Went to a program called “new ent”-- uh, “re-entry,” and completed the program, ended up with a good job as a cook. I work at Jersey Shore Barbeque East Brunswick. And that’s what I do.
Okay. Let’s, can we go back a little bit? So you must tell me a little bit about some of your memories as a kid and um, you mentioned your father, um, but you know, can you tell me what a day in the life might have been when you were a little kid? What kind of a um, you know, it’s a big family. Were there, you know, is there anything you can describe about, you know, if you’re making a movie about it what a day would look like or what a scene would look like out of your life as a child.
Oh, I could go as far as back as, uh, well my mother used to be at work all the time and we used to be locked in the basement. Well, the boys ‘cause my sisters used to be upstairs in my grandmother’s house. And, uh, my mother’s brother and his friends used to use my mother’s house as a place to hang out to get high and all that while my mother was at work. So one of the guys, which was my father’s brother, used to sneak downstairs to me and my brother and try to make us do things that we ain't supposed to be doing. And uh, it ran me out of the house. And I never got a chance to tell my mother-- not even my brother, and he passed away in early [unclear]. But when I try to tell my mother, she was like, well I never told her back then, it was too late. I was grown by then.
So your uncle got you to do something bad?
Yeah.
What did he get you to do?
That-- what you call that? Uh, molesting? Whatever you call that.
Molesting, he molested you?
Yeah. Me and my brother.
He sexually assaulted you?
Yeah.
And how old were you?
Uh, I had to be about eight, nine? Somewhere around there. But I’ll never forget it.
How do you think it affected your life?
It tore me up. It had me stressing my whole life. My whole life. Every time I look back I think about that and when I see him, I always want to do something to him, but uh, being that I became a man like I’m supposed to be, you know, I just let it fly by, and just forg-- you know what I mean? Forgive him. That’s the only thing I can do. So that’s why I ran the streets and did all the stuff-- hurting people on the streets, uh, went to-- I paid for it by going to jail.
Okay. Let’s go, tell me a little bit about what life on the streets was like. Did you, did you make a lot of money? Was it, did it feel like this might be a solution to your life?
It wasn’t a solution to my life. It was just something that I liked to do at the time.
At the time.
It was a lot of money.
It was a lot of money?
Cars. Girls. Clothes. You know. Fast money. But--
[Overlapping] So, you, you know, it felt good for a while?
It felt good for a good while.
Uh-huh.
That was my love. I didn’t have love at home.
Uh-huh.
So the love was right there on them streets.
Were you in a gang?
No.
No?
I always traveled by myself, or if I had anybody with me, they would be the people that was selling the drugs for me.
So you were involved in the drug operation that was--
Yes.
What was your role?
I was the man that was issuing the drugs out to the people.
On the streets?
On the streets. Yeah.
Okay. And you were able to buy cars? And have a, where did you live at the time?
Bought cars, had my own apartments, uh, had a lot of help by females, you know, that was uh, receiving welfare and all that. Living on the Section 8 and all that. I move in and help them.
So tell me how that stopped, how it ended.
That ended by me, uh, having some of them girls houses, doors kicked in. Houses getting raided. Ended up going, doing all that time I had to do.
00:07:15
Okay, where did you serve?
Uh, well I was in Rahway State Prison. I was in Northern State Prison, Southern State, Oradell, I could go down the list! [Laughs] So. The trade that I have now, that’s where I learned everything at.
Okay, so tell me about that, tell me, ‘cause it sounds like you made a… a big transformation. So how… That 28 years, right?
28 years, right.
Tell me about what that was like.
Um. As I, as I was doing the 28 years, I learned how to, uh, well, I got hired in the kitchen. You know, cookin’ for officers. So I learned everything there was to learn at food service. Right? I received at least six, uh… What do you call them? Certificates. And took that trade and brought it home with me.
So did you find that you were good at cooking?
Yeah. I loved it, ‘cause I like to eat. [Laughs]
[Laughs] So, did you get to the, uh, did you get to make fun stuff at all in the prison or?
Yes!
Right?
Yes!
Did you have any specialties?
Yeah, carrot cakes, banana cakes [laughs]. Fried chicken, macaroni and cheese, baked macaroni and cheese.
Oh, but that’s good too.
Collard greens, anything. Anything, they liked it? I made it. And they were threaten me one time, Maria’s like, yo, I’ma be maxing out, and no one, they cannot stop me from going home. They told me, if I don’t teach them guys how to fry that chicken before I leave, that I wasn’t goin’ home [laughs].
What’s the--
But I taught them!
What’s the secret? How do you do it?
A lot of seasoning. Just let it all... [unclear]. Certain days you could do fried chicken.
Like what? How did you, how did you teach them. What do you, what do you have to know?
I showed them what kind of, uh, seasoning that they could use. What you can add in the flour, know what I mean, all that. And that’s it! It’s easy! Just knowin’ uh, how much ingredients you can use to fry stuff with.
So, when you got out?
When I got out I almost made the wrong turn again, until somebody intervened, told me about this new program called uh, “Re-Entry.” So I went down there and I talked to some guys and I was there when it first opened. Went there, completed it, they got me this good job, and I ain’t stopped since. I’ll go to work every day. Those streets don’t even have time for me. I work too hard now. And it’s good money. [Annotation #1]
Okay, how--
It pays off good.
It pays well?
Mhm-hmm.
So tell me about your job and how long did it, did, was it hard to find a job?
Yes, it was. Because I kept bein’ denied because of my jacket.
Your jacket?
Mhm-hmm.
Is that, what does that mean?
Uh, criminal history record.
That’s called a jacket?
Yeah.
Explain that.
That’s what they call, uh, uh, a whole book on ya, on ya life. You know? It’s like charges that all build up.
I see.
So they call it a wrap sheet, a jacket, whatever they call it.
And so what would it be like, to go to an interview and then…?
Yeah, go to an interview, and uh, some of the applications may say, “Have you been locked up before?” And you have to put on the application that you’ve been locked up. So once they interview, the uh, the application, and then they go back to, like I said, the jacket, and find out what you’ve been locked up for and everything. And then come back to you and deny you ‘cause your jacket is too extensive. So it’s hard for people now to get jobs and everything.
How long did it take? How many did you apply for?
Uh. Like, at least 15, 20 of them. And everybody’s deny, deny.
How did the re-entry program happen?
Uh. They got they, well, that’s the reason why this reentry program, uh, came in effect. It’s because guys like us, you know, all us that been to jail that comes home and can’t get a job. Reentry turns us around and help all the guys get a job, you know. And now, that’s what I like about reentry program. It’s the only first program that ever happened for peoples like us.
What, what were the case workers like?
They beautiful.
Tell me, tell me about--
[Laughs]
Somebody who… was beautiful.
Oooh! They help you with uh. Um. Computers. How to find a job. How to be prepared for a job. Um. And the interviews. Uh, they help you, you get your license and everything back. Uh. Uh… Oh, they stay in contact with you, make sure you on the right path. Um. They just lovely people. They like to work with us. We need people like that. That’s what I like about that program.
So after you started the program, the 15 interviews or so, was that after you started the program or before you started it?
It was after I started that program.
Okay.
Well, uh, it was before I started program but once I started the program, everything came to a cease. I got anything I needed. Besides a place to stay. That’s the next hardest thing.
Okay, tell me about that.
Well, I’m trying to work on that, ‘cause they try to, they deny us for that too. Um. I showed them, when they ask, you know, uh, if you work, and I said yeah. So they say uh, can you uh, show me four, six uh, check stubs. I say yeah. I showed it to them. They say, well, you make enough money to pay for the apartment or the rent or whatever, but the only thing that’s holding you back is your criminal history.
That would be part of the evaluation.
Right.
They ask on the application, “Have you ever served time?”?
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
What kind of places do you look at?
Like, senior citizen homes. Uh. Apartment complexes. And, uh. Areas like that. The only place I applied to be able to live… The finer places in a private home, but… That’s kind of hard, too.
Because you have to individually talk to someone--
Right.
--and gain their trust?
Mhm-hmm.
What’s that like, when you interact with people who [unclear]. Does… Does it always come up? That you have a criminal record?
Yeah. It always come up. In everything I try to do. Positive that it is. It comes up. It makes me think of-- That’s what they want us to do. Like be failures. They keep them makin’ money in them jails. That’s like what happened with me [laughs].
Tell me about, how you feel about, not being a guy out on the streets. Do you feel like you’re… Not a dangerous person, you’re not the fir--you’re not the person that people fear. Can you talk about that? How you, how you are now?
Uh. No one would have to fear me because uh… I’m a loving guy. I was, used to be out there doin’ what I was doin’. The only reason I was doin’ what I was doin’ because I was sick. Drugs. It’s a sickness. Once you become uh, over that sickness? You feel nothin’ but love! [Laughs] You know? You have those that help you. That’s how I see it. Uh… As far as me hurtin’ people, you know, I could never do that.
But do you find that people think otherwise than about how you, how you feel?
Oh, we always gon’ have haters! [Laughs] That’s what we live around, a bunch of haters! You know, they just see somebody do good, they wanna bring them down! To their level. But uh, me? I’m much stronger than that now.
Tell me about your job and, and… do you take, do, more than one job…? Um…
I do everything that has to be done at that job.
What kind of things?
Um, it’s a, it’s a restaurant called Jersey Shore Barbeque. And the bosses are lovely. They love takin’ care of their workers. We be called “our family.”
Hmm. So you’re going to work, you have to be there by noon, what-what-what would you do?
W-w-what would the day be like there?
Um. As soon as I walk through that door, it’s like I, I mean, excuse my language, it’s like hell when I work there, walk in, but when I’m there, I do everything that have to be tooken care of. Like first, I go in, I see if the kitchen is mess-ed up. ‘Cause I don’t like workin’ around dirt. After I clean all that up, I pull out all the meats that have to be seasoned. Then I take the meats and throw them on the burner, and that’s my day right there. Then I go run up to the front room and find me somethin’ to eat. Kick back while it lasts. And I’m happy as I can be.
Mhm. I bet it’s yummy food, too.
Yes it is [laughs].
Um. So, where are you living now?
Uh. I stay with my son in his basement.
Oh…
It’s crazy, but I got nowhere else to go, so I have to deal with that until I can find my own place.
When did you, when did you get a son? Was it while you were on the streets?
Uh, my son was born in uh, 1979. [unclear] And my oldest is 40 years old and, she’s a girl. She’s my first. I have six kids, I lost two. Uh. One of my sons was, uh, murdered for that street stuff. He got shot in the back of the head for uh, a chicken spot down there on George Street by some little boy he had beat up. So they both came home from jail, they had bumped heads together. You know, the guy wanted to fight him again, so my son beat him up again. So two days later the guy found my son comin’ out the store, was gettin’ into the car. And ran up behind him and shot him in the back of the head and killed him. I was in prison. But if I was home… I’d be back in prison for life. ‘Cause he took my baby from me. But now he in there. He gotta do the rest of his life, so. I feel aight now.
Did you um, stay in touch with your children while you were in prison, did they come visit?
Yes, they come visit once in a blue moon. They was here. I watched them grow up in jail. When I was there. When I got home I couldn’t believe how big they got so fast. [Laughs] Now I don’t only have grands, I have great-grands.
Tell me about, tell me about the grandchildren and the great-grands.
You know what, I got so many grandkids I can’t count all of them! [Laughs] And the great-grands, oh my God. They like little munchkins runnin’ around [laughs]. But I love all of them! They stood by my side. Now I’m here to take care of them. I wasn’t able to take care of my kids, but uh, I’ll be here to take care of theirs.
Do you have barbeques or anything for them like that?
Yeah, we have uh, cookouts in the backyard and stuff like that. Maybe uh, at Johnson’s Park or somethin’ [unclear] Park or something like that.
So um… Tell me about the son you’re living with and, and what it’s like. You’re in the basement, explain--
Yeah.
Draw a picture for me.
Alright. My son, he’s married. He had about… let’s see, seven kids. ‘Cause his wife had, uh, four. Four or three before they got married. And then when he got married they had four more kids. Which adds up to seven. But they all grown but the two twins. The two twins is just a year old. And uh. He’s on SSI and she works. She’s a, uh, she work at the daycare. She take care of kids at the daycare center. Um. Actually, all I do is work too, so. All I do is work, come home, I’ll see him sittin’ around, runnin’ around, and I’ll just go to the basement and go to sleep. I wake up the next mornin’, it’s time for me to go to work again. I really don’t do-- spend too much time with him, but when I do go home, I do see him, hug him, you know what I mean, kiss him and stuff like that. Let him know I love him. Then go to sleep.
So right now, what you’re doing, coming home, is trying to find a place of your own?
Right.
So what has the process been like?
Hard for me. I been, like, almost every calm place there is in New Brunswick and uh. They’re not accepting guys that have criminal histories. Which I don’t understand. Because, uh, I make enough money, you know what I mean, to pay rent. So. I gotta keep strivin’. Until I’m uh. End up with everything that I need. So I can live a normal life like everybody else! [Laughs]
What’s your picture of where you want to be.
Oh! I actually wanna be in my own apartment, at least a one bedroom apartment which face the sea or somethin’ like that. Go do my test, get my license back. Transportation back and forth to work. And live a normal life.
How do you get to work then?
The bus and the train in.
How far away and how long does it take?
Uh, it takes me at least, uh. Maybe a half an hour from here. Um. Like, 15 to 20 minutes from downtown New Brunswick to East Brunswick to Newark.
Wait, did you say Newark?
Mhm.
You… That’s where the basement is?
No.
Oh.
The basement is here, but uh, I used to live in Newark.
Oh, I see.
I came over here because my job.
I see.
And. This is where my family is. Is-is- [unclear], in New Brunswick. But everybody left New Brunswick and moved over to Somerset so. I have to stay in my son’s house in order to go to work. And on my day’s off, I catch the train back to Newark.
And, and who do you stay with in Newark?
Uh. I have a girl that lives in Newark, born and raised in New, New Jersey. And then we’ve been there for like 10 years. In Newark.
So um, but you wanna get a place--
I need a place here, away from the jungle [laughs].
Do you wanna get a place in Somerset?
Uh, it don’t actually have to be in Somerset, because Somerset is a different county from Middlesex County. So. I would like it to be somewhere like East Brunswick by my job or anywhere that got me by that area. East Brunswick, South River, uh. What’s that, uh, Old Bridge, uh, New Bridge, you know, all that. Area of my job. Wouldn’t be so hard for me to get to work.
Right. So now from the basement of your son, who is in Somerset--
Right.
To get to East Brunswick, to your job, how long does that take?
About uh. You see, about 15, 20 minutes if I catch a cab.
A cab?
Yeah, 14 dollars each trip.
Wow. And um, I--how much, how, are you, how much money are you living on and, and how does it work? Do you, do you have enough?
Yes. I make, uh. Almost eleven hundred dollars every 2 weeks. So. That’s great for me, you know? That’s a big difference from making 124 dollars a month in jail. To now. Lovely. [laughs] Yeah. I, I feel good! I like my job! I love my job! I don’t really like it, I love it! Like I said, I like to eat, I like to cook! I like to see smiles on peoples faces after they eat my food.
Is there anything else that you think is important for what we’re doing here about struggle in New Jersey that I haven’t asked you about? Anything about your life that, that you want to mention?
Uh… The only thing I can say is for all the guys that, livin’ the life I’m livi--that I once lived? There’s a better way. They call it hustlin’. You can hustle in all types of ways. You hustle backwards, that’s not the way. You can go to work, you can turn that into a hustle. You know? And that’s the only way, the right way. In order to live in, in this society today. Because only jails are built for guys like us, that just want to run the streets, sell drugs, know what I mean, disrespectin’ people, don’t care about nobody. Know what I mean? W-- what we put in our pockets. And a, I realize we’re feeding our peoples poison. And it’s killin’ all our peoples. And I don’t like that. There’s too many of us leavin’ here for high drugs. It’s no good. So the best thing I got offered in [unclear]. They got programs now that can help them. Uh. All they got to do is just put the footwork in, know what I mean? Get there and, and, two or three classes. Once they complete them classes they find what they like to do for life. Then they know where to go from there. They live a better life. Like I am. And I done been through it all, seen it all. I seen people die. People died in my arms. And that’s not the way to go out. [Pause] I love what I’m doing. And I thank God for it.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
___
F: Without overtime, we’re talkin’ about like five minutes.
J: Right.
F: Yeah.
D: Let, let’s, let’s put this, I, I just turned the tape recorder on. So. Um. Why don’t you just tell me who you are and just to put your name on it and explain what you just said?
F: Hi, my name is Fiuri, I am a case manager for coming home.
D: Okay, and you were telling me about John. The amount of money and, and the difficulty.
F: So John is one of my clients and he actually works, uh, full time. Eight hours, uh, eight hours a day, ah, 40 hours a week. And he makes 11 dollars an hour. And the fact that he works overtime a lot is the only way that he, uh, will be able to pay for an apartment, and perhaps for it to happen to him, not to work overtime, it would be really hard for him to afford an apartment with eleven dollars an hour. And he knows that in order for him to afford an apartment he has to work overtime because it’s a little bit difficult to live on 11 dollars an hour, especially living in Central Jersey, specifically Middlesex County. It could get a little bit expensive.
D: Tell me what, what your feeling is about what you she just said.
J: Um. Well, I do have to work all the overtime that I can. You know, in ordered a, in order to be able to continue living in an apartment of my own. Um. (sigh) It’s gon’ be hard but uh. In a, in a, in another way it’s easy. Because I have to do it in order to have my own place. I have no other choice. And I love doin’ what I’m doin’ anyway so. That’s basically it.
D: So, to you it doesn’t feel like a small amount of money? You feel good about what you make?
J: I, I kind of feel good about what I make. Especially as far as bankin’. If I keep enough money saved up in that bank I should be able to handle what I can handle.
D: Are you able to save money?
J: Yes.
D: How much are you able, able to save?
J: Like, 500 dollars every week?
D: You’re saving 500 dollars every week?
J: (overlapping) Every two weeks.
D: Every two weeks?
J: Yeah.
D: Wow.
J: Mhm. That’s like half my check, I have to save for important businesses, and the other half is for like food, clothes, you know. Stuff like that.
D: So uh, are there things that you uh, want to be able to have?
J: Right now it’s just uh. Apartment and a car. That’s it.
D: When you uh, are able to get an apartment and get your license--right, you need to get your license back?
J: Mhm hmm.
D: Will you be able to afford a car, car insurance and things like that?
J: Yeah. I’m gonna be workin’, uh. Another job at the, my first job for 4 hours. Like, pumpin’ gas or somethin’. I’ll be able to pay for my car and all that. Insurance for the car.
D: So, you’re solution is to, to work more.
J: Right. You work more, you gain more. (laughs)
D: Uh, Fiuri, is that realistic?
F: Uh, uh, I think that’s going to be realistic for a period of time, but uh, the fact that he works, uh, 8 hours and then he’s gonna have to work 4 more hours on top of that, and then he’s going to get home like at around 3 am and then he has to wake up very early in the morning? He’s going to be able to pull it, but it’s going to be a little bit tough. Given that a lot of the jobs, they don’t pay enough money, and realistically, for a period of time, but I don’t think a long term is a realistic goal. We will have to find him a better job, that way, he, he, you know, he can work less hours instead of working 14 hours a day, which is a lot of hours, he can work 8 hours and still be able to survive and have a family and have um, a regular life.
D: And will this be, will he be able to do it in his field, cooking, do you think?
F: Ummm, we, we, we gonna do our best to try, but realistically it’s going to be a little bit tough. And I think uh. The only way for him to make it right now would be working 14 hours uh, uh, a day. At least.
D: And how does that feel to you, 14 hours a day? Do you agree with it?
J: I agree cause uh, an extra 4 hours is nothin’. I’ll still have enough time to get some sleep. (cough) Mhm hmm.
D: You sound very determined.
J: I am. Very. (pause) Very. I love, I love, I love a lot of things. Like clothes, cars, a house, my own house, my own apartment or whatever. That’s the way I grew up, how I was raised. To have your own. But you gotta work for it. And that’s what I’m gonna do.
D: Thank you again.
J: Mhm hmm.